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Religion Thread

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Packie
Katls
:)kiwi(:
Jonny
Gorgro
someguy3657
D-Munny
SQUIGGLES
Ziggles
Hollyღ
Top Hat Zebra
Taiju
16 posters

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151Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:56 pm

Samiam

Samiam

If you are going to drag up issues and posts from another part of the forum into the thread I would remind you this isn't about debating another person's behavior on the forum this is suppose to be a discussion about religion. The karma is a system for up voting or down voting posts based on content. I don't see why dragging up the fact I expressed my dislike for jokes of very poor taste into the discussion of this topic is even necessary. I find that to be in very poor way to make a point Sash. I guess you are right, this isn't a discussion I should take part in, I am not going to be here if you are going to just drag up stuff I say or do on other threads.

152Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:00 pm

SQUIGGLES

SQUIGGLES
The 7th Wonder of the World

Samiam wrote:If you are going to drag up issues and posts from another part of the forum into the thread I would remind you this isn't about debating another person's behavior on the forum this is suppose to be a discussion about religion.
This isn't a discussion about religion at all. It's about behaviour.

Samiam wrote:I don't see why dragging up the fact I expressed my dislike for jokes of very poor taste into the discussion of this topic is even necessary.
It's necessary to make my point.

Samiam wrote:I find that to be in very poor way to make a point Sash.
Proof is the foundation of argumentation, I would think someone who values discussion as highly as you would understand that.

My point was that "if you're allowed to make 9/11 a sacred cow on the Silly Board and ask that everyone is respectful about it, then I think I'm allowed to make religion a sacred cow, in the Religion Thread on the Serious Board" and I think it is entirely related to the discussion.

153Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Hollyღ

Hollyღ
Dove in the Moonlight

I'm locking this thread until I can make my post.

154Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:14 pm

Hollyღ

Hollyღ
Dove in the Moonlight

Sam post your reply

155Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:16 pm

Samiam

Samiam

I never made 9/11 a sacred cow, I would have had the same response if the jokes were in poor taste over rape, murder, child molestation or prejudice. I expressed my dissatisfaction for the jokes with the tools available to me on the forum. I did not "tell off" people I let them know the reasons for doing what I did.

I do take the George Carlin approach of "there are no sacred cow" but I will draw the line somewhere. People are free to express themselves but must remain mindful of how they act or what they say will affect their peers.

I have full expectation of being down voted whenever I make comments I feel may be offensive to others, if I do I see why and I learn from it. This thread is no exception and I had full expectation of it happening to me in the other thread.


Proof is the foundation of argumentation, I would think someone who values discussion as highly as you would understand that.

My point was that "if you're allowed to make 9/11 a sacred cow on the Silly Board and ask that everyone is respectful about it, then I think I'm allowed to make religion a sacred cow, in the Religion Thread on the Serious Board" and I think it is entirely related to the discussion.


I would appreciate it if you kept the sarcastic remarks about me to a minimum.

If proof is the foundation then prove to me religion is true, or how your religion is more true then mythology of the vikings or mormans or any other. If you make the discussion of even having religious views off limits then there is no discussion. Making a view such as religion immune to criticism devalues it to the point of worthlessness.

156Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:18 pm

Hollyღ

Hollyღ
Dove in the Moonlight

I'd like both parties to just relax for a moment, please.

Sam you need to take some breaths and calm down - this is not a personal attack on you and neither was Sasha's original post. He was saying it's beneficial to pick your words wisely as not to sound dogmatic. He was giving constructive critisism on how to word our posts to avoid conflict and it was aimed towards everyone.

>Sam The reasons are I feel like I been made an example of so soon after joining the conversation I was apart of for breaking rules that were did not yet exist for the thread until after I posted

You were not personally targeted or made an example of in malicious ways - this problem was stirred up before and was brought as a concern in which someone had to deal with it and the problem was brought up before you made your post. Your post made for the perfect opportunity to talk about these issues - It was because he admitted he has trouble describing something without pretext and offered polite constructive criticism on how to post and share beliefs here. He explained in his original post how he wasn't using you to showcase how youre wrong or make you a target or victim.

If I had doubts or based the existence of god on a personal belief then I would be agnostic. I cannot change my statement to make it more palatable.  This is actually a problem faced by atheists, and yes you are right people do not like being told they are wrong yet that is the de facto position I am in when I explain I am an atheist and simply do not have belief in a supernatural position. By expressing a difference in opinion I am (by default) telling you that you are wrong.

He's not saying to express doubt in your posts. He's expressing how to express your words in tactful ways. The point of this thread is not to educate others in what is right or wrong, and whether you belief in religon or not is your personal belief and theory, it's not fact and shouldn't be posted as such. Admittedly this should have been highlighted before the thread got this far, which is why we are going over it now. If you feel "opressed" than by all means you do not need to post here, but these issues are being discussed now to prevent further arguements.

That is not my intention to offend you but if getting told you are wrong is something to get you offended then quite frankly coming into a discussion about religion is not a conversation you are prepared to be a part of. I do not get apprehensive to being told I am wrong and if I am told so about a point or statement I made then I would ask you to explain why I am.

And this thread is not to tell others they are wrong, or to word our beliefs as if they are the only truth, it is to share different views and Sasha's post was on how to avoid being misunderstood or misinterpreted. If anyone is acting offended over "being told they are wrong" it's currently you, who is overreacting to someone making simple suggestions as to avoid conflict.

I was in my post attempting to open lines of dialog about my views on religion as well as try to answer questions asked of me but If you are going to place personal belief into a "no touching" zone to be held as some sacred cow of no hurting feelings then sadly I have nothing to discuss with you Sash and take my leave of this topic.

You are not being placed on trial for your thoughts on religion. You weren't even told you had done anything wrong - If any thread should be treated with care it should be the religion thread, in the serious board, where very delicate topics are handled. It's not hard to phantom why people would want some special precautions regarding the topics discussed here. If you do not agree with these precautions fine, but do not make it out as a personal attack on yourself, and especially do not call Sasha out on targeting you and being unfair.

You are taking personal offense to something which was meant to be innocent suggestions and are dragging in unneeded and unnecessary dramatics.




I never made 9/11 a sacred cow, I would have had the same response if the jokes were in poor taste over rape, murder, child molestation or prejudice. I expressed my dissatisfaction for the jokes with the tools available to me on the forum. I did not "tell off" people I let them know the reasons for doing what I did.


Sasha's point was that you expressed dislike for something (whatever the matter isn't the point) and people listened and learned from, and if you can express dislike and anxiety for something on another thread, he can share his own anxiety about something equally serious here without the threat of backlash.

Giving out negative votes even if its "the tools available on the forum" is very effective at telling people off after saying they had freedom of expression.

I do take the George Carlin approach of "there are no sacred cow" but I will draw the line somewhere. People are free to express themselves but must remain mindful of how they act or what they say will affect their peers.

Which is EXACTLY the point Sasha was making in his original post, which leads me to think you misunderstood the majority of what he was saying. He wasn't saying "we shouldn't say this because it might hurt peoples feelings." He was saying "We should word these carefully so as be careful how it affects others".

I have full expectation of being down voted whenever I make comments I feel may be offensive to others, if I do I see why and I learn from it. This thread is no exception and I had full expectation of it in the other thread.

That doesn't give the right to state your opinions in such a way that might purposely upset others if it can be avoided, especially since this is such a simple matter that you are blowing up to be overly complicated.

If proof is the foundation then prove to me religion is true, or how your religion is more true then mythology of the vikings or mormans or any other. If you make the discussion of even having religious views off limits then there is no discussion. Making a view such as religion immune to criticism devalues it to the point of worthlessness.

He was offering proof as to your behavior, not religion. Please do not twist peoples words. Also you are missing the point, again, of his original post, which was not to make religious views off limits. It was to bring awareness of how people word their views he was emphasizing.

---X-

For future reference, Sasha even though your post was thoughtful and affable I'm going to request all further examples in the religious thread be free from including anyone specific unless they agree its ok ahead of time

I will also request that if something like this happens again, instead of attempting rebuttals bring it up on our mod board please so we can all work on it

Sasha I will also allow you to respond to his post if you wish. After this point I would request that this issue be brought to me in the privacy of PM - if anyone has any comments or suggestions regarding this topic please PM me. I will discuss this matter with the other mods on our own board as well. Any continuation of this issue will result in warnings.

You are both my friends so I hope we can really work this out.

157Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:04 pm

Hollyღ

Hollyღ
Dove in the Moonlight

I am going to continue the thread now if the issue is done with

>Ziggles I have a serious question for those who don't identify as Christian/believe in a Christian god: do you feel guilty attending church services? I feel bad going these days, because in moments of prayer I feel like I haven't got anything to say for myself. It's like a hollow impression of what I used to do when I worshiped, and in the presence of so many devout people, I feel like it's crass to be there.

That might be more to do with my estrangement from the community than with my faith, but my congregation is typically very pleasant and accepting of all comers, so it's not that big a factor. Do you guys ever experience such a thing? Or do you simply not attend?


I've always felt the same honestly, when I believed in following my own spiritual path suddenly being in my parents church offered little comfort and gave me the impression that I was an imposer - considering the attitudes of the congregation I might as well have been. I never felt myself to be hollow or false however, simply an inconvenience. I did eventually leave, but only because my church had moved and I wasn't dedicated enough to follow them.  

The church community around my area aren't as pleasant and accepting as yours, but occasionally I find myself meeting really nice and open-minded people and I don't let the issue of different beliefs keep me from having good memories with them.

Do you still consider yourself Christian Ziggy? Sorry if its made clear in your post, I miss things sometimes.

>Jonny I think this is an interesting perspective, but I wouldn't worry about feeling guilty. When I was at university, I attended a meeting of the Christian Fellowship and one of the things they stressed was that you didn't need to be a Christian, or even religious, to attend: there was an emphasis on getting together and having a good time with a veneer of Christianity overlaying it. In the same sense, I imagine many members of a Christian congregation would be happy to have non-believers attend and welcome them as part of a community rather than it being an outpouring of and declaration of religious faith.

I like that, it sounds so happy and snuggly. I think that's what most religions really should be, happy and open arms and just sharing stories and views and such.


>Stef Anyway, Charles is already aware of my belief but we didn't know how it was called or if there was a name. Well I found it: Possibilianism

Like Sasha I've never heard of this being a thing until now, but I think I can really dig it. You said Einstein mentioned it? Do you have the quote?

On that note if anyone has any other obscure or lesser talked about religions or 'life-styles' I'd really like to hear about them.

158Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:21 am

AwesomeMedic

AwesomeMedic

Enstein never talked about it but peoples thinked he was a possibilian.

But for more info look at the site.

http://www.possibilian.com/

159Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:52 am

someguy3657

someguy3657

I like the idea of Possibilianism. I think that if I wasn't a Christian, I'd be one of those guys.

Of course, I'm still very much open to new ideas, and science isn't an exception here. I'm pretty sick and tired of the myth that, just because someone believes in a deity, they immediately reject all forms of science. I'm also sick and tired of it being "science vs religion", like if they were two highschool football teams we had to pick and cheer just that one. Why can't we cheer on both? And heck, why even fight at all? The two should be working together at trying to understand everything better, not against each other.

Stephen Hawking, a man that I admire for his dedication and intelligence, once himself said that "science does not disprove religion". Just because the universe is vast and seems empty doesn't mean some greater force that us mortals could never comprehend isn't behind it all.

And as a religious man, I want to sincerely apologize for the stupidity and ignorance of some who share my faith. No, I don't think that anyone of any other belief but mine is an idiot who needs to see the light, nor do I believe that my God would throw people to damnation simply because they don't believe in him. I believe I have the right faith, and everyone else believes they have the right belief as well, and no one likes to be told otherwise.

I actually, sincerely believe that if both religious and scientific communities put aside the little differences and stop being arrogant a little, they would do more good than harm.

Or maybe I'm a big dummy I dunno

160Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:12 am

AwesomeMedic

AwesomeMedic

Here's a little quote from Kevin Kelly:

Agnostics end with the lack of an answer.
Possibilians begin with the lack of an answer.

Agnostics say, we can't decide between this and that.
Possibilians say, there are other choices than this or that.

Agnostics say, I Don't Know, it's impossible to answer that question.
Possibilians say, I Don't Know, there must be better questions.


161Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:38 am

Hollyღ

Hollyღ
Dove in the Moonlight

>Charles I like the idea of Possibilianism. I think that if I wasn't a Christian, I'd be one of those guys.

Of course, I'm still very much open to new ideas, and science isn't an exception here. I'm pretty sick and tired of the myth that, just because someone believes in a deity, they immediately reject all forms of science. I'm also sick and tired of it being "science vs religion", like if they were two highschool football teams we had to pick and cheer just that one. Why can't we cheer on both? And heck, why even fight at all? The two should be working together at trying to understand everything better, not against each other.

Stephen Hawking, a man that I admire for his dedication and intelligence, once himself said that "science does not disprove religion". Just because the universe is vast and seems empty doesn't mean some greater force that us mortals could never comprehend isn't behind it all.

And as a religious man, I want to sincerely apologize for the stupidity and ignorance of some who share my faith. No, I don't think that anyone of any other belief but mine is an idiot who needs to see the light, nor do I believe that my God would throw people to damnation simply because they don't believe in him. I believe I have the right faith, and everyone else believes they have the right belief as well, and no one likes to be told otherwise.

I actually, sincerely believe that if both religious and scientific communities put aside the little differences and stop being arrogant a little, they would do more good than harm.

Or maybe I'm a big dummy I dunno



I think the main reason the two factions clash so often is because science covers the extent of what is observable and tangent, while a lot of religion is faith based, in which the proof comes from the persons fealty to their beliefs. I believe that the religions that have no need or basis for certainty for example wouldn't find benefits in science which would only set out to disprove all that religion stands for, and that only increases the tension between the two.

Medicine is one of the most important thing the two should coexist for, I don't think people realize just serious the issue of modern medicine and health systems regarding religion is.

>Stef Enstein never talked about it but peoples thinked he was a possibilian. But for more info look at the site. http://www.possibilian.com/

Thanks for the link. That mode of thinking is really safe and flexible, I'm still surprised I've never heard it mentioned before, especially considering it's at least a five years old philosophy.

Possibilianism Introduction Article:

Something interesting to think about.

162Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:02 am

AwesomeMedic

AwesomeMedic

Well the name is five years old the way of thinking is way older

163Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:39 am

Ziggles

Ziggles

Hollyღ wrote:Do you still consider yourself Christian Ziggy? Sorry if its made clear in your post, I miss things sometimes.
Naw, it's cool, I talked about it a long time ago. I don't consider myself a Christian any more because of my lack of faith in an omnipotent/-present/-benevolent higher power. The life and death of Jesus is still moving to me and I think there is a lot to learn from his teachings as written in the Bible, but Christian is no longer what I am.
It still kind of works for what I do, though. The Golden Rule is an ideal method of behavior IMO.

I believe I am legally part of the United Methodist Church, paperwork and ceremony-official.

Hollyღ wrote:
I like that, it sounds so happy and snuggly. I think that's what most religions really should be, happy and open arms and just sharing stories and views and such.
I agree! Religion should be a positive aspect of culture, not a negative one. More people should recognize that even those you disagree with are people too, and worthy of respect and consideration.

@Possiblianism: I like that! Open-mindedness as a lifestyle. I can get behind that.

164Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:54 pm

Katls

Katls

Ok, here you go, moved from Sam's blog.
Spoiler:

Now, for a little addendum. Apparently, I didn't make this thing's purpose clear enough. My primary concern was that he was actually attacking religion in there, so I clarified something about evolution. You can't put evolution under the same category as gravity regarding absolute fact. Gravity can be actively observed. Evolution and the history of the universe can not. He didn't even use evolution in the correct way. Evolution is NOT we evolved from amoebas. That branched off of evolutionary theory. That is a completely different theory. Evolution is simply the theory (a conclusion reached by various observations, contrast law, which is a statement you can either put as an equation that will always match the results of any experimentation with it or a consistently true statement that has been proven physically various times) that life will change over time according to environmental conditions through a process of elimination. THAT is obvious and a given. It has been proven through actual current studies and just simply makes sense. But as evolution is used commonly, it involves the conclusion drawn from that later on that all living things have a common ancestry, and that humans and the human brain are just the products of random events. It's erroneous common use puts every single conclusion drawn from the actual theory.

Now that I've more properly explained my stand, I will now clarify something for now the fifth time.
THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON ATHEISM. THIS IS AN ATTACK ON AN ATTACK AGAINST RELIGION. I'm going to say this absolutely directly why I'm talking about this. WHAT FREAKING RELIGIOUS BELIEF IN [U]ANY[U] RELIGION IS AGAINST GRAVITY OR ELECTROMAGNETIC FORCES. That was entirely irrelevant and it's use exaggerates the difference of view in a very condescending way. Incase he changes it, to correct it or to try making my argument irrelevant, I don't care really, here is a screenshot of that.
Spoiler:
And then Gorgro told me not to make it an religion v atheism thread, but the original content was very aggressive to religion and I was simply saying that he was absolutely wrong in doing that in an indirect way that wouldn't offend and would actually say this in a logic-based argument.
And, honestly, I don't think that Gorgro is the best mediator for religious discussion. Part of the reason I never post in this thread is because of him, I only had to look through it once and know that any calm, logical argument is going to be dissolved into a freaking catfight. Gorgro has said some very rude things on here and is very condescending to religion. Is it so hard to just discuss something? My thing was not aggressive to atheism at all, just some of the jerks in it who will insult Christians and not even have any form of scientific discussion with any of them because they fundamentally don't agree. Their angle is always to attack my beliefs, but I NEVER EVER ATTACK ATHEISM, I simply go at a scientific angle. I don't care if you don't believe in God, my big thing is that they need to learn not to just argue anything with pathos or insults, there is a much better way to do it. Not that the type of people that I focus this kind of argument on really cares.
So, everyone please do me a favor AND DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A FIGHT. I spent my good time trying to clarify something and put things on more even ground, I don't want this to just become a reason to fight.

165Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Ziggles

Ziggles

Gosh I really need to make that debate rules sticky ASAP. If that was live right now, it would say: no ad hominem/personal attacks on anybody, so saying mean things about Dennis based on actions he's apologized for is completely uncool.

Also, Katls, I fear you might be using a Strawman in order to make your argument. In the future, it would be better if you'd only reply to an argument someone is actually making instead of one that you commonly hear or dislike. If you're going to bring up a topic that no one is actually discussing, you'd better preface it with "some people" or somethin' so people know how much of your position is disagreeing with your position.

@The topic at hand: I think one thing I can agree on with Katie is that the concept of evolution is not one giant set of conclusions that one agrees or disagrees with. I feel that religion is very much the same way, and that many aspects of it can be agreed or disagreed with, without discounting the whole thing as a whole.

166Religion Thread - Page 7 Empty Re: Religion Thread Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:18 pm

Katls

Katls

Ziggles wrote:so saying mean things about Dennis based on actions he's apologized for is completely uncool.
I'm sorry, I hadn't seen that yet. My reaction was overly aggressive. I'm trying to work on it, it's been a very shaky few months and I'm turning into more of a jerk each day. I'm not even sure why.
I apologize Gorgro.

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