Jonny wrote:Top Hat Zebra wrote:
Cars are perfectly acceptable to own, do tricks with, and be informal with in day-to-day life. And they're giant boxes made of metal capable of going faster than any creature on earth, and they are fueled by explosions.
So, clearly, we should take them off the streets, and only let trained professionals use them, right?
Well, isn't this something we already do, to a degree? We license people to drive. This doesn't stop every drunk driver or psychotic car-murderer, but is it unreasonable to think it stops some irresponsible people from using a car?
This brings me round to the issue of gun control again. As the Newtown shooting has demonstrated it wouldn't and couldn't end all gun crime, everywhere. But could it reduce it? If the Newtown shooter hadn't taken his mother's guns, where would he have gotten one from?
Last edited by Top Hat Zebra on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
In regards to Sandy Hook, my personal perspective as a foreign observer is that the US holds two values unusually sacred, personal responsibility, and the right to firearms. These two points are cultural, they're not legislative, they're not religious, they're inherited values from generations past. You've been taught that they're worth holding, so you do.
Unfortunately, the consequence of these values is a lack of available care for mental illness, and a supply of readily available firearms. In fringe cases, this nurtures a few dangerously unstable people, who have access to deadly weapons.
What I see in people's responses to this tragedy, is that these values are too important to change, so blame is being diverted to various straw-men, like religion and violent video games. Nobody wants to embrace social responsibility, despite the fact it would create safer, healthier communities by providing care to the mentally ill, and nobody wants to limit the availability of firearms, because they feel they have a near sacred right to own them.
My perspective is from a nation where psychiatric care is available from both public and private institutions, and where it's virtually impossible to get handguns or assault weapons. I could buy a bolt-action rifle with a small magazine, or a break-action shotgun, if I payed a hefty fee and passed a license test, but realistically the mayhem a person could cause with a weapon of that style is very low. When shooting events happen here, there is seldom more than one casualty, because of the nature of weapons available.
My perspective is that America is not willing to make compromise to it's values, because psychiatric care is expensive and "not my responsibility", and gun ownership is sacred, but that is the price of lowering the likelihood of freak shooting events.
There are other issues, like the duality of a nation mourning these children dying, while being utterly accepting of the US Army murdering dozens of children with drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen. The value American citizens give to the lives of their own people over the lives of foreigners is troubling. Ideas like that have lead to very unfortunate periods in history.
Gorgro wrote:I read a pretty relevant comment on reddit earlier
In regards to Sandy Hook, my personal perspective as a foreign observer is that the US holds two values unusually sacred, personal responsibility, and the right to firearms. These two points are cultural, they're not legislative, they're not religious, they're inherited values from generations past. You've been taught that they're worth holding, so you do.
Unfortunately, the consequence of these values is a lack of available care for mental illness, and a supply of readily available firearms. In fringe cases, this nurtures a few dangerously unstable people, who have access to deadly weapons.
What I see in people's responses to this tragedy, is that these values are too important to change, so blame is being diverted to various straw-men, like religion and violent video games. Nobody wants to embrace social responsibility, despite the fact it would create safer, healthier communities by providing care to the mentally ill, and nobody wants to limit the availability of firearms, because they feel they have a near sacred right to own them.
My perspective is from a nation where psychiatric care is available from both public and private institutions, and where it's virtually impossible to get handguns or assault weapons. I could buy a bolt-action rifle with a small magazine, or a break-action shotgun, if I payed a hefty fee and passed a license test, but realistically the mayhem a person could cause with a weapon of that style is very low. When shooting events happen here, there is seldom more than one casualty, because of the nature of weapons available.
My perspective is that America is not willing to make compromise to it's values, because psychiatric care is expensive and "not my responsibility", and gun ownership is sacred, but that is the price of lowering the likelihood of freak shooting events.
There are other issues, like the duality of a nation mourning these children dying, while being utterly accepting of the US Army murdering dozens of children with drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen. The value American citizens give to the lives of their own people over the lives of foreigners is troubling. Ideas like that have lead to very unfortunate periods in history.
Top Hat Zebra wrote:Gun ownership is a right, the same as any other right. It's mentioned specifically, because it's one of the most important things to keep. We have the right to bear arms, so that our leadership cannot do what they want to do, anytime they want to do it.
Last edited by Dewmann on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Jonny wrote:Top Hat Zebra wrote:Gun ownership is a right, the same as any other right. It's mentioned specifically, because it's one of the most important things to keep. We have the right to bear arms, so that our leadership cannot do what they want to do, anytime they want to do it.
Let's look at what the Second Amendment actually says.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Now this is something I can understand, but is a well regulated militia what we have in America? A body that scrutinises the Government and has the forethought and reasoning to act accordingly if it gets out of hand? We could argue in many respects the battle has been lost. To take a recent example, look at the controversy surrounding HSBC.
US authorities defended their decision not to prosecute HSBC for accepting the tainted money of rogue states and drug lords on Tuesday, insisting that a $1.9bn fine for a litany of offences was preferable to the "collateral consequences" of taking the bank to court.
Announcing the record fine at a press conference in New York, assistant attorney general Lanny Breuer said that despite HSBC"s "blatant failure" to implement anti-money laundering controls and its wilful flouting of US sanctions, the consequences of a criminal prosecution would have been dire.
Had the US authorities decided to press criminal charges, HSBC would almost certainly have lost its banking licence in the US, the future of the institution would have been under threat and the entire banking system would have been destabilised.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/dec/11/hsbc-fine-prosecution-money-laundering
Which on the surface makes sense, but as Glenn Greenwald argues:
That's not merely a dark day for the rule of law. It's a wholesale repudiation of it. The US government is expressly saying that banking giants reside outside of - above - the rule of law, that they will not be punished when they get caught red-handed committing criminal offenses for which ordinary people are imprisoned for decades. Aside from the grotesque injustice, the signal it sends is as clear as it is destructive: you are free to commit whatever crimes you want without fear of prosecution. And obviously, if the US government would not prosecute these banks on the ground that they're too big and important, it would - yet again, or rather still - never let them fail.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/12/hsbc-prosecution-fine-money-laundering?INTCMP=SRCH
How is the ownership of guns preventing underhand, if not blatantly corrupt, practices such as these? And if in some nightmarish scenario the government did bring the fight to the public, could the public reasonably fight them?
It's not enough to merely own guns and treat it as a symbol of your own liberty. You have to do more than that.
Jonny wrote:I'm not sure if it's fair to compare a gun-owning populace (that is probably familiar with gun usage) with a highly trained, highly equipped military force. Still, I think it's a moot point as any sort of assault on the American public wouldn't be done with guns.
Tuomey wrote:Zebra, hate to burst your bubble here, but bombs are illegal.
No one can own a legal bomb and then do illegal things with it or have it stolen and then have sone else do illegal things with it.
It's not fucking stupid to ban bombs.
They find the bombs.
They dispose of the bombs.
This happens more frequently than actual bombings.
There aren't "just, like, shit tons of bombings".
Equating bombs with guns is ridiculous.
People don't use bombs for self defence, regardless of what the IRA and other factions might say.
Bombs are purely an offensive weapon.
If you're going to equate guns in the USA with bombs in the UK and Ireland, you should just stop right there.
I have family in Northern Ireland.
I lived in England and now I live in the Republic of Ireland.
I've read books by SAS members and IRA members and politicians and both sides and so on and so forth.
I've looked at this particular thing from all of the sides.
It is nothing like guns in the USA and it has nothing to do with that issue.
Also, uh, signs of suicide or attempted suicide are generally enough for mandatory admittance to a mental hospital, making it effectively illegal.
(Sending a depressed person to jail is considered unhelpful.)
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